Episode 020 – Season 1 Q&A

9 July 2021

Find this episode on your usual podcast player,  on YouTube, or listen here.

This transcript has been edited for clarity.

 

B: Well, gidday T, here we are. Episode two zero, the big 20.

T: Yes, two zero, the ultimate episode. I was watching TV the other day, and someone who worked for the Oxford English Dictionary was saying that the word ultimate does not mean the best, it means the last. So we are in the ultimate episode of Season 1.

B: Today we’re going to touch on those questions people have been sending in, but before we do that, we just want to remind people that there’s a lot of people feeding back that they’re enjoying the podcast, there’s certainly a lot more engagement with the podcast. It’s obviously hitting home with some people – rate us, review us on your favourite podcast platform. Put us out there, retweet us, share us on Facebook – whatever. We want to build the community of people coming together to talk and no, Anthony Venn-Brown, it is not the congregation. It is not a ministry, we just want to build a community.

T: The other thing to remember is Red Bubble. I know it may sound a little bit pretentious, but we do have merch. That’s a way for you to get the brand out for us, people find out about us when you’re drinking from your coffee cup or wearing your hoodie, or whatever you’re doing, so look for us on Red Bubble dot com. Any money we make from that goes back into the running of the podcast as well.

B: And for those who say what do you need money for, every time we do a bit of an advertising campaign on Facebook, it costs us money. The last one we did proved to be relatively successful in getting a few more people involved in the conversation. Some of you who are listening now might be a product of that. 

T: So don’t feel obliged, 100% this is free, we do it as a labour of love. But if you wanted to support us, that’s how you can do it. The other thing is the Facebook group, it’s still going brilliantly. We’ve got over 150 people as members of that. People are chatting, you can come along and just lurk. You don’t have to engage, but you can see what other people are saying so we invite you to be a part of that. We also invite you to follow us on Twitter. I’ve got a question for you, B. What was your favourite episode so far?

B: I think it was the series of episodes with Anthony Venn-Brown. I love reading a biography, and listening to someone’s story and journey is always a highlight for me. So those episodes 11, 12 and 13 were really interesting. I enjoyed those chats with Anthony, and also exploring where he’s come from, where he’s going to, where he is now, all that sort of stuff. That’s the sort of thing we’re trying to unpack through this series. How about you, T?

T: Reflecting on the AVB stuff, he definitely has a story and he definitely was a Teenage Fundamentalist, but I think what is really interesting about him is not just the LGBTQ factor but also the fact that he was such a high profile leader. That was what made that one so interesting, and impacting. But no, mine was the speaking in tongues. I loved it. 

B: No surprise.

T: Yeah, I just laughed. When we were making it, and also I’ve listened to it a few times and I’ve laughed out loud. The innuendo was unintended. We were not going in there going heehee let’s make cunnilingus jokes as much as we can hehe. But we just did, and I loved it.

B: We do like to have a little bit of a laugh along the way. We don’t have script writers for our jokes and puns.

T: I think that’s obvious B.

B: You’re right, but next season we may be employing script writers, who knows.

T: The other one that stood out to me as impactful on me was T leaves the Revival Centre. That one, I didn’t realise how much that was going to impact me. I thought I was past a lot of that stuff. I genuinely thought oh Revival Centre, left that behind a long time ago. AOG? Different kettle of fish. But I was genuinely upset and unsettled for a good couple of weeks after we recorded that, and I think going back and listening to it a few times didn’t help. I really thought I was past that, but obviously not. 

B: I think we reflected as we were recording that one, I could see how visibly upset and shaken you were by even talking about it. There was a lot of shit coming up for you, but I think the whole series – it’s been interesting, I’m the same. I thought oh I’m ok, I can talk about this stuff, and it’s dredged up things that I didn’t know where there, that are still there. It certainly hasn’t dealt with it, but it’s good to chat about it and get it out there a bit. I think that’s what people are resonating with on the Facebook group as well, they often talk about hey this is helping in being able to normalise the abnormal.

T: Yeah, agreed. One of the things that the whole positive psychology movement has shown us is we don’t need to live there. I don’t think it’s called negative psychology, but the traditional psychology thing was we go back and unpack it, then we keep unpacking it. Positive psychology says no, we unpack it, we process it, we put it all away and we move on. It’s one thing to go back and revisit, have a bit of a laugh, and even make a podcast, it’s another thing to stay there all week, or all the time. I realise that people are at different points in this process and not everybody has this experience, but I think it’s really important to not stay in the negative any longer than you need to. I want to stress I know there’s times and a need to be there, but we don’t want to stay there forever.

B: No, it’s not a healthy or happy place. You can over analyse, I think you have to deal with it, move on best you can, and find your support networks that can help you do that. I think that’s a really important thing.

T: Finding that balance, B, between leaving or moving on too early, or moving on too slowly – I don’t have the answer to that, but I do think there is a middle ground where we process it, we put it away, we move on. Then having done that, coming back with a positive attitude towards it, and reflecting on it in that way can be a good thing.

B: Yeah, definitely. Everyone at their own pace. Lots of downloads, I think T you posted during the week that we hit our 5000 mark last weekend.

T: I remember when we got excited at 50. Now we’re doing that a day.

B: I got excited when there was one, until I realised that one was probably me listening to our first episode. 

T: I think we should jump into these questions. How do you feel?

B: I think that would be good, and just before we do, thank you everybody for sending them in. We’ve got quite a few, there’s some great questions in here and some that have involved us having to dig a little bit deeper and think about how we’re going to respond.

T: So how about I fire the first one.

B: Why not.

T: This is from Anna, on Facebook. She says, do you think our experiences are unique to the context of the 80s and 90s, or do you think teenagers today in Fundamentalist churches in Australia are experiencing the same culture, behaviours, beliefs and pressures?

B: Good question. I really don’t know any teenagers in the fundy scene at the moment, because a lot of my friends, and I imagine your friends too, T – their kids are getting a bit older so they’re not really in that fundy scene anymore. But I would imagine it’s similar – there’s different societal pressures, but you hear quite often from evangelical circles push back on some of the progressive policy of government and I imagine that’s reflected in the church space. What do you think about it?

T: I think it would be similar. Of course there’s going to be differences – we’re talking 20-30 years later, but I do think it’s very similar. The scene has changed somewhat because you’ve got the whole Hillsong thing, and Justin Bieber, Hayley Bieber, Chris Pratt and people like that involved in it now. I mean, we used to get excited with Tommy Emmanuel, and that jockey Darren Beadman.

B: Oh that’s right.

T: Yeah, we used to get excited at them, and now these guys have got Hollywood superstars and pop stars and this kind of thing involved in the scene. I don’t know if you remember, but even Guy Sebastian from Australian Idol – I think he’s since left. It just sort of exploded with all these famous people, sort of like Scientology. I think there are definitely differences in terms of the sheer size and scale, but I also think a lot of it is the same, because I don’t see a lot of evolution in terms of doctrine or position around social issues and that kind of thing, so I would think it would be the same. But, like you, I’ll throw the caveat in there and say ultimately I don’t know.

B: I can think of two friends off the top of my head (which at my age is good! – it’s better than one) that go to Pentecostal churches now. I think they act quite differently in that scene when they’re mixing with those people than they do when they’re with me. I’ve seen some evidence of that through social media and some of the things they post, and then some of the interactions we have when we hang out. So I think there is still definitely a pressure – these people are in their 40s and even 50s but I think there is those pressures on that age, so undoubtedly there would be similar pressure on teenagers.

T: Question number two, and this is for you. Isaac from Facebook says is the congregational church model biblical?

B: Well Isaac, I actually don’t know whether it’s biblical, but I think the congregational model of anything is quite a positive thing, as long as it’s not exclusive. As long as it doesn’t block other people out, because the reality is that we are a communal people as humans. We don’t do well in isolation generally – some people love isolation – but definitely that coming together in the congregation – I like to catch up with mates at a pub. Some people might like to catch up with people at church, but again it’s about that congregational feeling. Whether people are doing that for any positive outcome, then I’m ok with that as long as it’s not damaging or exclusive and as long as it’s not a cult.

T: I don’t want to alienate Isaac with asking this question, because we say everyone is welcome etc, but I just want to say Isaac, my response to that is I don’t know and I don’t care. It doesn’t mean I don’t know and don’t care about you, Isaac. I’m sure you’re awesome. But I don’t care – for me the trigger word there was biblical. Is it biblical? I don’t know. Probably. But everything is biblical. Having a penis like a donkey like in the Old Testament – apparently that is biblical. Having giants that ran round and slept with the daughters of men, or angels sleeping with the daughters of men and making giants – that’s biblical. Worldwide floods are biblical. So I don’t use that as a measure of whether something is useful or true or anything like that anymore. So resonating with what you said B, I do think that the less of a clergy and more of a laity approach is a good thing around spirituality. In that sense I would say it’s a valid question. Is the congregational model versus the Presbyterian model better? Yes, but is it biblical? I don’t know and I don’t care.

B: Yeah, and I think you missed the second half of that scripture – wasn’t it appendage of donkeys and emissions of that of a horse, or something like that?

T: Possibly.

B: We used to quote that one quite often because it was a heehee – very childish

T: My favourite one – I used to tell people it was my favourite scripture and I can’t remember the reference anymore – but it was the one in the King James where they sit on the wall and eat their own dung and drink their own piss. It said piss – you couldn’t say piss in church, you couldn’t say piss off, and yet the bible says piss.

B: Does it say pisseth?

T: No, there was another one about pisseth against the wall, but this one was just drink your own piss, which I’ve never done.

B: Well, you know, Bear Grylls – loves it. I’m going to ask you the next one, which is from Poker. Again from our Facebook page. How did your emotional support change between now and within the AOG, within friends, family, church and such? So, let’s say, who did you ask about your doubts? Do or did you have people who you would not mind seeing you cry? I’m asking about the quality or kind of relationships the church environment was building between its members. 

T: Yeah, that’s a deep question, because there’s so much to unpack in that. I have always been the kind of person who had solid friendships and relationships, so when I left the church and Christianity, I left a lot of people behind. There was a gap in my life. I did a runner, changed jobs, changed countries. I went over to an expat scene overseas where a lot of people were in the same position, they’d left everything behind and were looking to connect with people, so I quickly made some really good friends. It’s very different I think being back in Australia, for example, because when you step out of church a lot of people already have their social networks and friendships so it’s very hard to connect. I think I was lucky going overseas in an expat community where everybody was a little bit needy for friends. It was actually harder when I came back to Australia, trying to reconnect with old friends because people had moved on. But my emotional supports in a lot of ways are the same because I have people that I trust who I can talk to, but I don’t have that sense of community that we talked about in that Community in the Fold episode, that certainly doesn’t exist, and I miss that. I miss that dearly. I used to think it’s like being in high school, being in church, and I’m so glad to put that away, but there was that sense of community that I really missed. One other thing I will say is the people I have in my life now, I trust far more than the people I necessarily had in my church life. I wouldn’t have gone to pastors and told them about my real struggles and concerns, or my real battles because you don’t know how they’re going to judge you, whereas the relationships I’ve got now with people that I really trust, I can tell them almost anything.

B: Yeah, that’s great. Do you think that’s also an evolution with your maturity, or is it reflective of the group that you trust?

T: I think it’s both but it was a lot easier to make friends when you were younger than it is now, so friendships are more important and I think we guard them a lot more than we did back then. But Poker asked about who do you ask about your doubts. I don’t really ask anyone. I find out for myself now, and I think that’s key. I do a lot of reading, whether it’s books, websites, blogs or podcasts, whatever it is, I go and immerse myself in things and find out. I don’t need to go to an authority as much as I used to. What about you?

B: It sort of folds back to Isaac’s question in a way, that sense of community – very much like you, there was a gap when I left. When I decided to break away from the church space, that happened around the time I divorced, so it was a double down in lonely time, because as you know in divorce quite often your friends sort of pair off, dependent on which allegiance they want to sick with. I missed that for a really long time. It was really difficult. I’m someone who makes friends really easily and at that time I found myself turning towards work friends a lot more, because it was easier, and I found that sense of community with work. That was quite a few years ago and I’ve certainly moved on since then and I’ve got a really good established group of very close friends. We check in on each other, we can say anything to each other and there’s no judgement. I think that’s a great place, but it’s taken a long time to get there. I found it easier within the church scene, it was something that was quite inherent. Obviously it’s dependent on the individual church you went to and the culture that was developed, but the culture for most of the places I was at was a really supportive culture. If you’re a relatively likeable person, you’ll be invited into the fold. It’s easy, because you could see a lot of people that weren’t invited in, and it was harder on them. There’s a lot of personality stuff in there as well. There was a difference for quite a time. That difference is gone now, and maybe I had to learn the skills to be able to develop that outside of the church space, but I’ve certainly developed them.

T: Yeah good. We both are telling the story of – it’s ok, but it doesn’t mean it wasn’t hard at times, and also doesn’t mean others haven’t faced a real challenge and really miss that. I think sometimes people go back to fundamentalism, Pentecostalism, whatever. They go back because they miss that and don’t find that in the larger society. Who’s going to judge them for that?

B: It hurt knowing that some people didn’t want to associate with you. It wasn’t like you were excommunicated or anything, but you weren’t within their bubble anymore, so it was a bit too much hard work to engage with you because you weren’t coming to those common groups together, whether it be a bible study, a church or youth group meeting. Unless you’re actually coming to those it’s a bit of an effort to connect, so yeah, difficult time.

T: Yeah, sure. Hey, I like this next question. This person calls themselves Dork, and they’re from Holland. So this is our first international question! 

B: Hello Dork from Holland!

T: It’s hey, I love your podcast, I feel incredibly understood. Considering you still have friends in the church, how does it feel to see them raise their children within Pentecostalism or Christianity in general? I ask, because that is for me personally probably the biggest trigger, seeing Christian friends teach their children the same things that have caused me so much pain and trauma. And then he also says much love from the Netherlands.

B: I love it. I feel love from the Netherlands. It’s fantastic, especially from their little hash cookie cafes.

T: I’m just gonna gloss over the fact that you’re on drugs. You know, we’ve hinted – or more than hinted – that I had an angry atheist stage. So I have children, and it was very much conscious for me to say am I going to raise my kids with a belief in God or not. And at that point in my life, no I’m not. So I intentionally moved them right away from any belief in God, they would talk to me about God and I would say no such thing.  I talked to them about the Flying Spaghetti Monster god, I talked to them about the giant teapot between Earth and Mars, and that could be there and God could be next to it. The whole bit – I gave them all the atheist lines and so I raised them very much not believing in God. Then later when I had my sort of mystical experience, just to confuse them, I went back and told them oh by the way, and they sort of let me know secretly oh we kind of always believed anyway dad, it’s all good. Watching people raise their kids in fundamentalism I am so glad that I kept my own kids out of that, even if it was true, because almost every one of them that I know are somehow messed up by it. There’s very few that aren’t. They’re reading the books, they’re listening to our podcast – there’s so much anecdotal evidence that says this is not good for kids. 

B: Yeah. Very true. I think for me I didn’t really keep contact with too many people that I would be concerned about them raising their kids in Pentecostalism. I had some quite progressive friends, so I think they were also questioning around a similar time, but there were a few that I didn’t keep contact with but I knew of. One that comes to mind was someone that rang me only probably about two years ago. Their adult daughter who was probably in her 20s at that time was wanting to study the degree that I have, and the degree that I have is quite often seen as quite worldly within church circles. She rang me very concerned that her daughter would be deconverted by taking part in that course and learning different things that weren’t within the constructs of the church. She knew I wasn’t involved in church anymore, she probably doesn’t know what I believe, but was really digging away asking if this was going to destroy her daughter. And I said well in my opinion, it won’t destroy your daughter, it will actually empower your daughter to ask those questions she should have been asking, and you as a parent should have been encouraging her to ask a long time ago. I imagine that she still went on to study the course I studied and I don’t know where she’s at now – that was probably 2-3 years ago that I had that conversation, but anyone who is within the scene that I would be concerned about bringing up kids, I disassociated from quite a long time ago. But like you, T, I would be quite concerned about somebody bringing their kids up in that scene without actually helping them to question along the way, and being a little bit more openminded.

T: It seems to me that a lot of the people that go the distance in Pentecostalism were the ones that were born into it. Certainly there are people that convert and stay in it, but I think in terms of our peers, more people are out than in. 

B: Oh definitely. 

T: I think there is a place for the indoctrination and conforming their minds to the image of Christ, or whatever it is that they want to say, but it keeps them in there. So, from a Pentecostal perspective there is a place for that, but standing on the outside I’m looking at it going this is not good for anyone and certainly not good for the kids. I’m really glad I didn’t raise my kids in this, I’m glad I left before I had kids, because I think they’d be coming to me and saying my therapist said, and pointing the finger at me.

B: I think that regardless of whether it’s Pentecostalism or any lifestyle that doesn’t allow you to look outside and question, and try to contextualise in different ways, is a dangerous place. And Pentecostalism falls into that, for sure. Now, the next one is clearly pointed to me. Are your brothers still in church, B? Yeah, one is, one has fallen back into there. Wasn’t there for quite a while, there was lot of stuff going on in their life. The other one, I think they habitually go. That’s it. There’s nothing behind it, there’s no faith driving it, they just go because for 30 odd years it’s been habitual. It’s pretty hard to break away from that space, their family goes, as in their wife, their kids. So they both go, but both are in quite different positions. I’m going to ask the next one to you, T. This one is from Daniel on Facebook. I do feel like it’s a bit of a telethon – Daniel, from Facebook.

T: Daniel from Facebook has given five dollars!

B: If we read out his name! And I’ll read it again, you owe us $10. How was leaving the religion handled by those who remained? How were you treated?

T: Oh, this is Season 2. Basically that’s where we’re going to go with Season 2. The majority of them didn’t take it well. I even had some very dear friends who didn’t take it well, and I think that was because, if it hasn’t become clear, I really did believe this. I really did live it, I was a leader, I was in positions of leadership, I lived this Pentecostal Christian faith.

B: You were a zealot!

T: I was, very much. And to then turn around and say nup, don’t believe it anymore and leave, was I think very challenging to a lot of people. But coming back to what you said before, B, I think my divorce was more polarising than actually leaving the church. I think more people looked at me divorcing my then wife as a betrayal of God and Jesus and everything, more than just stopping going to church. I think a lot of people see you can stop going to church and then to back later on, but divorce is pretty much final, unless you’re Don Johnson and Melanie Griffith, who seem to get married three or four times, that’s pretty much it. As we know, largely in Pentecostalism – at least when we were there – that was the unforgiveable sin. So, I think that was more polarising, but to be honest those two things were sort of mixed up as well. A lot of people got quite mean. I remember when I came back from overseas and started reaching out to people, the coldness from a number of them, and some of them actually said to me oh I’m friends with your ex-wife, and they made it very clear this is the side I’ve chosen, so don’t call me again. They didn’t quite put it like that, but that’s what came across. Again, B, that’s another episode to discuss all that, but I think most people couldn’t handle it. Very few could, I think some of them, when I adopted a bit more of a spiritual outlook rather than the angry atheist, even though I wasn’t a Christian, some of them were a little bit more welcoming then. I think they were more threatened by the atheism than by leaving. I think a lot of people have a very fragile faith. I’m not saying everybody does, but I think a lot of people really do, and they really do their best to keep anything that’s going to challenge, or break the foundations of their faith, they like to keep it at a distance. So I don’t know if it was always personal, but can I say god it felt personal at times. 

B: Oh, absolutely.

T: What about you?

B: Quite similar, I think that similar juncture around divorce – it’s a point of no return. Not all; particularly the last church I went to was very accepting of people who were divorced, it wasn’t an issue at all, but if I reflect on it, I think I used it as a time to break away. It had been a long time coming, I was one of those people who were habitually going, had some fantastic friendships with people, had some of the closest friendships I’d had in years. How did it work out? I think there were two stages. When I left Great Big AOG I was reasonably detached from a lot of people and I think it was convenient for them I’d left because I was accused of being a pew warmer, because I was going to a lesser spiritual church which was a Baptist at the time. The last one I was at was a Church of Christ. A lot more people were very accepting, I still have contact with a lot of people from there and it’s been over ten years. I think they were a very different mix of people, grace was actually lived, and I still get along with those people really well. We still have some fundamental differences; a couple of good friends of mine are ministers, but we have a really respectful conversation with each other. It’s not an issue for them that I believe what I believe or don’t believe what they believe. We come together and connect on a different level, and have that base of friendship because of it. I wasn’t ostracised on the whole, but I was definitely ostracised by many in different areas, and particularly as a result of divorce, of people taking sides. I cut and run. I left it, I just couldn’t be bothered putting the effort in. There was enough emotional turmoil as a result of the divorce, and I didn’t have the energy to put into those relationships, and I never went back to try.

T: You know what happened for me though, even though I was overseas, Facebook came along. Then all of a sudden I was connected with people, which I think at a different time you would have walked away and never seen them again. With Facebook we were in each other’s face, with a book. I remember when Facebook first came along, and the confronting of the way that we were in each other’s lives; people were saying things, and I was saying things to them. I was thinking someone’s going to write a PhD about this – quite confronted by seeing these people again, and their rejection. I think in a different time you wouldn’t have had to see them again.

B: Yeah, true. And you were in your angry atheist stage.

T: I was, yes. And happily so. All right, I’m going to read the next one, are you ready?

B: We’re moving into the anonymous?

T: We are, this is anonymous from Facebook. In your opinion, does Christianity (and Pentecostalism in particular), prevent people from growing up properly? I mean, the fact is mostly about conforming to standards of behaviour and avoiding upsetting God, the literalism that constrains people, thinking the way 95% of sermons are about what people should be doing better; the way adults are called children of God or sheep, and are always waiting for daddy to intervene to fix them and make their life easier.

B: Look, I’ll sound like I’m banging on about this again, but I think any social construct that locks itself down and doesn’t allow you to look outside it and have reference points outside of it, I think prevents you from growing up properly. Pentecostalism absolutely does that. It locks you in, this is generally speaking, not every Pentecostal church, but certainly my experience has been it locks you into a way of thinking, it locks you into a particular bubble that absolutely you don’t grow up properly, you don’t learn how to deal with things in an effective way, living within broader society. You quite often see that, particularly with kids who have grown up in the church, they don’t have another reference point. They go to university and either freak out, or they backslide. They go into another space of kicking their heels up in the excitement of being in a world they haven’t seen before, and don’t know how to process it. It’s really bad, and that’s where I think it sits on the edge of cultish-ness for me. How about you?

T: Yeah well, I definitely saw that when I came into Great Big AOG after spending a few years in between the Revival Centre and Great Big AOG. I came into Great Big AOG and thought that the kids in the youth group were – and I’m going to make an arbitrary number here – were two to three years younger than their peers on the outside. When I left the Revival Centre and went into “the world” I wasn’t ready. Even though I’d gone to school, hung out with friends from school and everything, there had been a lot of the stunting. I had this warped view; I thought everybody in the world was bad and doing all these horrible things, and so many people don’t. So many are good people, quite moral, not lying, stealing, cheating, promiscuous – not everybody is. At all. So I wasn’t prepared for that, but in answer to the question in terms of adults – 100%. I think like you said, any sort of restrictive culture, emotionally or psychologically, is going to hold back and restrict growth. I’ve seen that in myself, I’ve seen it in my friends, no doubt. That’s another reason why I say ultimately this stuff’s not good for you.

B: Yeah, that’s right. There’s a little quick quiz at the end there – what’s your least favourite word in Christian-ese?

T: Fornication.

B: Californication?

T: No, fornication, because that’s what I got kicked out of the Revival Centre for. (sobs) – I’ll be okay.

B: You will be. You’ll be fine.

T: Yeah I don’t like fornication. Who says that? Hey baby, can I buy you a beer? Let’s go fornicate.

B: I mean, it’s a great pick up line, probably seldom used. For me, I dunno. I hate them all.

(laughter)

B: Jingoistic bloody rubbish.

T: Fellowship. I was working with someone who was a Christian recently, and they were talking about how they had good fellowship with their family. I just looked at them and thought oh fuck off. I didn’t say it, I just thought fuck.off. Go and fucking fellowship elsewhere.

B: In my profession, wisdom is used a lot. Practice wisdom, and things like that, and that triggers me sometimes. But I also use it, but sometimes it triggers me.

T: I remember I brought that up with you once, when I was in the angry atheist stage. You said something about wisdom and I said what you mean, fucking wisdom? What is wisdom? I’m not so bad with wisdom now, especially around the Buddhist tradition. It means a different thing.

B: It does. I think my bent was very much about knowledge without wisdom and how dangerous it was. There’s a lot of people who have a lot of knowledge, they know stuff, but if they don’t know how to apply it, they’re a bit shit. I’m going to ask you the next one, which again is from anonymous. I’d be interested to hear your thoughts and reflections about progressive Christians, whether Pentecostal or Charismatic heritage, who are trying to shape a more holistic, contemplative, caring, live-giving expression of faith and justice. People like Jonathan Martin, Sarah Bessey, Chris Green, Carlos Rodriguez, I’m going to throw Rob Bell into that. Liberation theology, biblical scholarship, science, LGBT inclusion, and Christian universalism.

T: Until you said Rob Bell, my answer to that was going to be I don’t know any of these people.

B: That’s why I threw Rob Bell in.

T: I don’t know if Rob Bell was. He was definitely mega church, but I don’t know if he was Pentecostal. Or Charismatic. He never really talks about that when I listen to his stuff. Look, we say progressive now, I think I said in another episode we used to call it small L liberal, theologically liberals. Liberals were the devil when we were Pentecostal, and somehow that became a label that people have moved away from – I don’t want to be seen as a liberal so they’ve made this term progressive. I think it’s great, okay. I really do. Anyone who’s going to hang onto their identity and say I’m going to reshape this, remake it, I’m going to look for the good. Having not read any of these guys and girls, but seeing that you’re saying they’re more contemplative, caring, life giving expression, liberation theology and biblical scholarship – fantastic. Go for it. 100% on board, and as a matter of fact I read this kind of stuff sometimes although none of those names. I draw value from it because I existed in that framework for so long that I know the expressions and language. So even though I consider myself to more resonate with Judaism or Buddhism, I still very much draw on progressive Christianity and think there’s a lot of value in it.

B: I agree. There’s still a few I follow on Facebook, I also subscribe to emails from Shane Claiborne, Tony Campolo, Red Letter Christian stuff. But they’re certainly not fundy or evangelical. I think they’ve definitely stepped away from that space. I enjoy reading their stuff – I don’t agree with it all, actually I don’t agree with much of it, but there are bits I do resonate with, particularly around the social justice stuff. The thing that first attracted me to the person of Jesus or the stories of Jesus were about how he stepped in and stuck up for people. He didn’t like the establishment. I still resonate with that. I don’t resonate with the whole Jesus is God and stuff like that, that’s a different story, but I really enjoy the narrative around that space.

T: The irony is that Jesus was anti-empire. It was the empire that strung him up on the cross. And then his religion became the religion of that self-same empire, just a few hundred years later. I mean, that’s just amazing. I like what Rob Bell says about this, he says this religion is anti-imperialism and anti the status quo. If you can rediscover that, this religion is really valuable. But like you, I’m not necessarily going to jump onto the deity of Christ, literal resurrection and all that stuff, but I don’t think you need to, to find value in the story of Jesus or the story of the Old Testament prophets. They’re fight the power, liberation theology stuff. I think it’s brilliant.

B: Unless of course you’re a fundamentalist who says if you don’t believe that Christ rose from the dead, you’re screwed. We’ve got a double banger coming up here. Were there positives for you guys that came out of your experiences as teeny bopper fundys – T, that’s your word, teeny bopper fundys. You definitely coined that phrase.

T: Like I’ve said before, Lady Gaga has the monsters, I want us to have teeny bopper fundys. I’m not saying that to patronise anyone. I’m one of them.

B: That’s right. Most of us were. So any of that stuff that you carry through to today?

T: Isn’t that what we said is one of our intents for this podcast series, was to make sure it doesn’t just become a negative fest. That we don’t just put a complete negative spin on this, that we actually do look at the things that were of value. Some of my ability to network, I think I said in another episode my ability to speak publicly, if it wasn’t for being a teenage fundamentalist, we wouldn’t have the fun of making a podcast, B.

B: That’s right! Silver linings. 

T: Some of my friendships, some of my relationships with people…

B: You’re talking about me.

T: I am talking about you, but I’m talking about others as well so don’t go out the wind. There’s a lot of really good friendships I have, people I connect with, but for what it’s worth, I think I could have had a lot of that without being a teeny bopper fundy. What about you? What are some of the positives?

B: I think the profession I’m in today, I was led there by my time in the church scene – not so much fundy, it obviously started and had its roots there, but it definitely led me into the helping profession I’m in today. But like you, I think the confidence, the self-belief. I think I’ve talked about this in my conversion story, Episode 1, where I was a self-doubting person when I came into the Pentecostal scene and it gave me confidence and self-belief. I had acceptance. So I think that sort of stuff really helped build me as a person, notwithstanding the fact I had to deconstruct it to reconstruct the life I have now, after coming out a bit damaged. But, that still was a legacy of it, that gave me a good foundation.

T: I think for me too, the whole performance aspect. For the job I do now, I work in the corporate sphere and I actually have evangelist in my title on paper, that I’m trying to steer people towards technology, trying to influence people. There’s that whole performance side of it that I think I had a natural skill in it, but the whole Pentecostal scene gave me a place to practise and hone those skills. 

B: Second part of that question from anon – any recommendations around the unpacking and processing out of the anger and feelings of betrayal that come up during de-fundying, or if either of you went through those feelings, what helped you personally?

T: Yeah, I spoke about that a moment ago in saying you can’t stay there for too long. If I could go back and process this again, I would speak to myself and say don’t stay too long in the negativity, because I did. That being said, I read a lot, I consumed a lot, I read the whole Daniel Dennett, The God Delusion, Sam Harris, all those kinds of folks. I read a lot of that angry atheist stuff and it was really good, because it helped me break it down and get rid of it all, and like you said, rebuild later on. Emotionally, it would have been good to have someone that was skilled in people leaving fundamentalism and them guiding me, saying okay that’s true, but what about the positive side? No one was coming to me and saying that – we talk about angry atheists as a stereotype because a lot of atheists are, and a lot of atheists are ex-fundamentalists. So I think destroying that picture of God was important, because it set me free to start to think for myself. But again, I’ve said this nine times but I’ll say it again, you just can’t stay there too long because if you do, you suffer.

B: Absolutely. Just perpetuating the damage.

T: What about you?

B: Yeah look, I think having people to talk to – it’s a no brainer to have people to help process it. But I’m also a firm believer that we have the answers within ourselves. We know the answers, and we need assistance to draw them out, so the things that we need to go forward – they’re there, but we need some assistance. Whether that’s going to a counsellor, or a psychologist – you can go to your GP and get a mental health plan, and if you get a good psychologist you’re not much out of pocket per session. Go and start to unpack it a bit, but go to one that perhaps practices something like narrative therapy that can help you rebuild and re-focus rather than unpack it to such a point that you have no idea where to take it from there, and you’re dependent on them to reconstruct it. Connect with people you know who have left. On this Facebook page I think a lot of people here have left and dealt with that. Reach out, talk, be honest. Be honest with yourself, but also don’t be hard on yourself. If there’s stuff you haven’t worked out yet, give yourself time. Here I am, many, many years on – I still haven’t worked it out. I probably never will work it out, I’ll die before that happens. Don’t be hard on yourself. Life is a journey, as tokenistic and ridiculous as that sounds, stick with it. Journey along.

T: The thing too, B, about fundamentalism – and this is where it becomes cultic as well, is it can be a prison of the mind. You may be very smart, compassionate, you may be a really good person, but if there’s been a maze built in your mind that won’t let you out – for me who’s quite cerebral and likes to think, I consumed a lot of stuff. Ultimately I did need someone to act as a guide to say hey, you need to put this down, or investigate Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, or you need to meditate and do some loving kindness meditation and just be positive. Eventually that came, but I think in answer to the question, that CBT/Buddhism stuff is really good for staying positive whilst focusing on the negative, because you do need to focus on it while you process it. So I would suggest CBT and I’m not putting this forward as a religion – I would say secular Buddhism. A lot of Buddhist practice and resilience training is really good;, that positive psychology is really key.

B: Yeah. Good tips.

T: All right, I’ll read the next one, hey?

B: Why not. 

T: So this is Isaac on Facebook, and he says I’ve been coming out of fundamentalism for a few years now. Still associated with a church, but the input from there into my spiritual life is almost zero. I’m feeling out what it means to follow Christ free from the constructs of organised, congregational Christianity. I would appreciate your speculation around this question, or your experiences, if either of you still consider Jesus to be the Christ.

B: Ooh. Some of this is Season 2, isn’t it, about where we’ve got to. However, whether Jesus is the Christ? I’ve mentioned this before, and nope. The reality is those constructs, whatever you’re doing going forward – I read a good book about Christianity in the United States and how most of the people who identified as Christians weren’t involved in the church at all. Something like 70% – a huge stat. If that is what works for you, and you want to explore the teachings of Christ within that space, without that organised, congregational Christianity as you say, then go for it. See what that means. Explore it, contextualise it in the world around you, rather than contextualising it within the walls of the church and organised religion. Give it a crack, if it’s not working for you and you’re in that church, in fundamentalism with zero feedback – ask yourself why you’re there. Are you there because of the social aspect, are you there because you’ve got familial pressures to remain there? Explore that stuff first, and then as you do that, step out. Try different things. Don’t judge yourself. Don’t let others judge you. Fuck ‘em. You’ve got to be able to free to move forward and ask questions. If people stop you from asking questions, look at the value of them being in your life, because real friends will support you to ask questions and not judge the space you’re moving within. It doesn’t really matter if you believe different things to them, because we’re not all the same. Rant over. How about you, T?

T: Well, we talked before about progressive and liberal Christians. There was an older guy named Marcus Borg who was then a liberal, today would be called a progressive I’m sure, but he talked about Jesus being a spirit person. There have been numerous spirit people throughout history, and some stand out more than others. Some of the Old Testament prophets would be spirit people, we’ve got the Buddha, we’ve got Jesus, there’d be numerous people that would be considered spirit people, and in that sense I think Jesus was the Christ. In the sense that he was a spirit person and that he was a person for his time, and that his words echo and resonate on, well beyond his life. So in that sense I would accept that, but is he the fulfilment of Jewish Messiah and saviour of the universe, all that kind of stuff? Eh. But I will say if you want to keep Christianity as a framework, you’re not quite ready to step out of it, then a couple of people I would recommend you read and explore are Richard Rohr who is a Catholic priest, he does the Centre for Action and Contemplation, I would suggest you jump into him. Another one would be Rob Bell, who is much more mega church, evangelical kind of stuff, and still a Christian. The other one, if you’re really feeling like you want to get out there and get your boundaries tested would be to jump into The Liturgists podcast. They deconstruct and reconstruct, they’ve decided to hang onto Christianity as a framework, some of them would believe in a literal resurrection, some don’t, and they’re still fellowshipping (that word). I would not discourage you from hanging onto your Christian framework if it works for you. That’s not what we’re trying to do, we’re not trying to tear anyone away from their beliefs or their faith in Jesus, but we went a different way, didn’t we. 

B: Yeah that’s right. As I said before, I still have many dear Christian friends, some of them are ministers. I value them as people, they value me as a person, there is no issue with that whatsoever. So please pursue what works for you. I’m going to ask you the next on T. We’re down to our last three questions – there has been a few, so thank you. It’s a long podcast, so extended play for people.

T: Yep, extended episode, isn’t it.

B: Absolutely, but you asked for it. You asked us questions, we’re going to answer them. So, I’ve silenced my involvement in the AOG cult for years. Alienated family and friends with my zeal. Still feel like decisions made then have a detrimental effect on my children who are now adults. How do I get past this when you don’t even talk about it? Still feel shame about falling for such bullshit (you’ve said BS, I’ve said bullshit), and haven’t even started on my experiences in the church.

T: Okay, I don’t know if that’s a question, but I will respond to it. 

B: Yes.

T: And my response to that is very much what we’ve been talking about today. Set yourself free, be gentle with yourself, start to explore other ideas. You even talked about the impact it’s had on your children. You can’t undo that, but maybe have some conversations with your kids about hey, I used to do this, I used to believe this, here’s what I’m thinking now. Just be honest and open with them. Our brain’s neuroplasticity means we’re all still learning and changing, it’s not too late. We just can’t go backwards in time.

B: Speak for yourself.

T: Keep listening to the podcast, not because we need your numbers but because it’s obviously resonating with you. Get involved in the discussion group, and read. That’s what I found to be really important, but remember what I said about that positive psychology stuff. Look for ways to draw the positive out of it and move forward. Don’t be stuck in regret. 

B: Yeah, definitely. I obviously relate to this, I’ve spoken many times about how I’ve always found it very difficult to talk about my faith. So it’s a bit different, I didn’t alienate people with my zeal, I didn’t really witness to them or hit them up, but I always felt a shame about speaking about how I was involved in this Pentecostalism, because I found it a little bit weird, even being in there and being part of it. When I reflect I know that from the outside of people looking in they’d be going what the hell are you involved with? I found that a little bit difficult to handle, but as T said, go easy on yourself. Feeling shame? Well that’s something that others can bring upon you, but I think quite often we bring it upon ourselves, so we need to extend grace to ourselves. I don’t say that in a Christianese way; grace and forgiveness are powerful tools we can extend to ourselves. Forgive yourself, forgive others and find a way to move forward.

T: I think that’s really key, B. Forgiveness, and forgiving the people that hurt you, forgiving the churches. It doesn’t mean you’re saying it’s ok, but I think it’s really key to healing. When you can get there. If you can’t get there right away, it’s ok.

B: And talk to others. If you’re a talker, talk. If you’re a reader, read. If you’re a meditator, meditate. Whatever helps you.

T: Next question is from Sean on Facebook, and this is a deep one. Do you think the manipulation of behaviours through guilt and shame was malicious or ignorant?

B: Ah, look, I think it was both. I think there were some people that absolutely used manipulative tools to control people, and loved the recognition of that, the control they were able to have over people, but in large, I would like to think that most people were ignorant and that they were brought up within a culture where it was normalised. That’s what you did, and that’s how you operated. You do see people, televangelists and such, a lot of that is pure manipulation and bloody evil, but I think the vast majority of people in the circles I moved in, it was ignorance, and I think a lot of those people would look back on that time and recognise the ignorance they displayed at the time. How about you, T?

T: Yeah, I think some of them would. Some of them would look back, maybe even most of them, but certainly not all of them. It’s not black and white. You can’t look at it and go were they malicious or were they ignorant? I think sometimes it was a combination of both. Sometimes in exactly the same situation someone could be operating out of a degree of ignorance and a degree of malice; by and large it was a system, we were conditioned by the system, and the reason I say that with some air of confidence is because if I can’t believe that of others, how can I believe that of myself. There’s stuff I did – I’ve mentioned I wrote letters to people, I’ve said I’m sorry, there was something in me at the time, niggling saying maybe this isn’t the right thing to do, but the system said this is what you do, so you went along with it. I think part of our desire to not use people’s names when we’re disparaging them, we just call them pastor this and pastor that – intentionally doing that like we do in the podcast is because, to quote scripture, the measure you use will be the measure used against you. Sorry if I triggered anyone then. So if you’re going to use that measure against other people then you have to use it against yourself, and if you want to be forgiven by yourself and forgiven by others, forgive them too. I think it’s a combination of both, but I think it all needs forgiveness. That said, if someone is still continuing in that behaviour, then they need to be called out.

B: Absolutely. We’ve admitted on more than one occasion through the last 19 episodes that we have used manipulative behaviours before as well, so we’ve intentionally done it, but I think it was very much a minority, but it does happen. I think this is the last question, from Kerri. So there seems to be a culture within many ACC churches, Australian Christian Churches, where ministers have to attend so many church meetings that their family life suffers. This is expected and many people’s marriages break up. Do either of you have any thoughts on this as ministers in training? Now, I would like to say I was a minister in training, you were an actual minister. 

T: No, I was still a minister in training, because my certification – I can’t remember the term they used – never came through. It was put in, it was being processed, and then I withdrew it, so technically I was never actually a minister, I was a minister in training. I can remember when I went to the Every Believer Evangelism course run by Tony Venn-Brown. I can’t remember the actual joke, but Tony said something about becoming a Pentecostal, and not having any time, because it takes up all your life. I saw a lot of that. The ministers were doing 9-5, then they were out for night meetings, home groups, youth, this and that – you and I did it too, B. We were busy all the time. We know that puts a massive stress on families. I can’t speak to marriages that have broken up. I know there’ve been a couple but I can’t speak to why that happened, because I was never privy to the inner workings. I would suggest it was probably deeper than just the time and attention that people are or aren’t giving to each other. I would think there’s a lot of stuff going on that the system is not good for; honesty in relationships and intimacy and that kind of thing, so I think it’s a lot deeper than that, but it’s definitely a factor in breaking people down – and up.

B: I think it’s probably the superficiality of the response people quite often get when they’re struggling, too. Oh I’ll pray for you brother, or sister. That’s what you’d get, rather than a true support. So if someone said oh God my life is falling over because I just haven’t got time for everything, usually the answer was to pray for someone. I saw over and over there was very poor management by the church of work/life balance of the ministers. Probably the flip side of that was they enjoyed the recognition. There was a high importance, particularly in large Pentecostal churches that you were seen – it was evident that you were at this and at that, you got recognition for it and you were definitely put up on a pedestal. Literally at Great Big AOG you were on a pedestal on a stage, quite often. So I think they need to get better at that. Secular and community organisations that treat their staff that way don’t keep their staff. I work for an organisation that if they don’t provide a work/life balance, they lose people. I think that’s harder within a church, because it’s the deeper purpose it provides when you’re a minister. You can’t just move on and go oh I’ll get another job, because a lot of the time it’s all they’ve ever known and that’s their core identity, so leaving that behind isn’t an option. You just keep pushing on and on. I think a lot of partners are longsuffering partners who’ve just accepted they’re going to have absentee husbands or wives, fathers, mothers, whatever, as a result of the greater sacrifice of ministry, and I think that is really poor form to allow that to happen. I would hope that’s getting better, I don’t know if it is, but I would hope within the scene that it’s getting better.

T: That’s the carrot, the status and being put on a pedestal, but I think the flip side of that, the stick, is the guilt. There would have been a lot of guilt as well – oh brother, you’re serving the Lord, and this is what the Lord expects. Who decides that?

B: Absolutely. Well again, thank you everyone for all those questions. There was lots there, I think there was 13 or 15 questions. I enjoyed having a chat. Once again, we didn’t come in with a plan, we thought we’d just have a chat and talk about what we thought about them, but it was enjoyable. You might want to reflect a little bit on it?

T: Yeah, well I guess I just want to say thank you to everyone who’s been a part of the journey so far of Season 1. We’ve really enjoyed doing this, and we’ve really enjoyed the fact that you’re even tuning in and listening, which is really great. We plan to take probably about a month off, we will certainly announce a few weeks in advance when we’re coming back, but it will be at least a month, maybe a little bit more, then we’re going to come back with Season 2. So, for Season 2 – B?

B: Yes, for Season 2 we’re going to mix it up. We’ll do a few things different. We haven’t determined what the format will look like, but we’re certainly excited about bringing a few more guests in. It was fantastic to have Anthony Venn-Brown in for three episodes, but we’ve got a few more coming up and I’m really excited about them. One that I have absolutely loved, Tara Jean Steven, who presents the Heaven Bent podcast – there’s two seasons, one’s been about the Toronto Blessing, and one is about Bethel church. I’ve found it fascinating, because I left Great Big AOG about the time Toronto was blowing out, it was something I ignored and missed, so it’s a window into that world that is fascinating. You excited about that one?

T: Very much so! Her podcast is really slick and nice, and I’m looking forward to her coming on and talking about where she’s come from, because she grew up as a teenage fundamentalist herself, but also as a journey around lifting the lid on Toronto Blessing and on Bethel. I think she’s been very fair with both of them. You don’t walk away going oh this was all shit, you walk away going okay there was some good in this and some bad in this, and I think that’s where we resonate because that’s what we try and do as well. The other person I’m really looking forward to that we’ve got lined up is Tanya Levin that wrote the book on Hillsong, People in Glass Houses. She’s also a member of our Facebook group, so I’m really looking forward to getting her in and talking with her about her journey inside Hills Christian Life Centre, what later became Hillsong, but also the writing of her book and where that whole thing has taken her. She’s become an icon, a spokesperson for people that have left Hillsong. So we’ve definitely got some guests lined up, and some other people we would love to get on. We can’t name them yet because we haven’t booked them, but that would be really cool. Of course, we’re going to keep weaving our own stories in there as well, talk about our own journeys, the good and the bad in that, and I think B you would agree we’re still going to talk a bit more about being inside Great Big AOG and Pentecostalism, but then we’re going to start to move into the leaving. So if you’re waiting for us to tell you about why we left, how we left, what happened, it’s definitely going to be coming up in Season 2. 

B: For both of us it was an incredibly long journey. It wasn’t something we woke up overnight and went oh, it’s Tuesday, it’s time to leave the Pente scene. There was a lot of influences that happened over a number of years, so it certainly won’t be summed up in one, two or three episodes, and will probably be peppered through the themes as we weave through Season 2.

T: Excellent end of Season 1. The ultimate episode is done. 

B: It is the end of the Season. We are finished, we’re wrapping up. We’re excited about a break, but we’re also excited about coming back. For now, T, it is farewell. To you listeners, it is farewell, but it is not goodbye. 

T: Indeed, and can I also suggest that everyone remember to get vaccinated, and stay safe. We’ll see you in a month and a bit.

B: See you then.