Episode 021 – Christian Contemporary Music (Music Part 2)

13 August 2021

Find this episode on your usual podcast player,  on YouTube, or listen here.

This transcript has been edited for clarity.

 

B: Well, gidday T! Here we are, Season two, and as people will hear, we have theme music. 

T: Yeah, the podcast is so grown up we have theme music. 

B: The podcast is grown up. We’re not.

T: No, not at all. You can tell by the music we picked.

B: We did spend a little bit of time identifying a piece of music, and we thought that one spoke to us.

T: We did indeed. We really wanted to have Jesus of Suburbia by Green Day, so jump onto Spotify or YouTube if you don’t know the song, but we couldn’t afford that. This one cost us $17. 

B: But we did get 50% off didn’t we, because it was $34.

T: Yeah that’s right.

B: I felt like I was back in Koorong, digging around the bargain bin.

T: Yes indeed. Koorong or Word. Which did you spend more time in?

B: I was Koorong, because it was closer to home and Word was a little bit of a trek away. But I did go to Word every now and then, and occasionally I ventured into Keswick. 

T: You know, later on I became much more Koorong-y, but that was more trying to reflect what sort of a Christian I was, because Word was still very Pentecostal. I don’t know if you know, but Word bookstore was very much tied to the AOG, they were a group of AOG families, all the same surname. I think they were originally called the Gospel Film something, and then they became Word.

B: Huh well there you go. The surname wasn’t Word, obviously.

T: No, the surname was not Word. So I became more Koorongy as well. There was another one that was this Lutheran bookstore – that’s where you went if you wanted to get academic and small-L liberal stuff. You’d branch out and go down there, it was almost like doing the wrong thing. 

B: Did you have to step over the threshold of hell to enter the store?

T: No, but you had to believe in the real presence of the Eucharist to get in.

B: Yeah, so I couldn’t have got in until later on obviously. You were ahead of me on that one.

T: Let’s talk about what we’re going to talk about today, which is Christian Contemporary Music, or CCM. It’s part 2 of our music episode, we did a more general talk about music, we talked about Hillsong and praise and worship, and all that sort of stuff but this one is focusing specifically on CCM. One of the things that we’re going to do is we’re not allowed to play any sort of copyrighted music on the podcast, or it will get taken down. Apple, Spotify, no one will let it play if we do that, so we want to try something a bit different. Whilst we are certainly going to have conversations about bits and pieces, later in the podcast we’re going to ask you to stop playing the podcast, click on the links we’re going to provide in the show notes, so you go into your podcast app and you’ll see some links there to some YouTube clips. You’re supposed to stop and listen to those songs then come back to us, and we’ll talk as if we’ve all just heard the song. We’re going to do exactly the same thing. So while you don’t have to do that, you will miss out on what we’re trying to achieve, which is to immerse yourself in the song, then we have a conversation about that cool.

B: Yeah, it’s a little bit like reading a story to your kids and it goes DING when you have to turn the page. 

T: It would be good, wouldn’t it, if we could actually play the songs and make this nice and seamless, but we thought this would be the best way around it. We want you listening to feel like you’re part of the conversation and hearing the music, otherwise it’s going to be a bit disjointed for you. So a little bit of work for you, but please try and play along.

B: For those playing at home, here you go. For me, and I think I’ve spoken about this before, music has been a massive influencer in my life. From a very young age I really identified with music – more than books. Books speak to me more now, but music speaks to me a lot. So I’ve found two, not my two favourite songs, but two that came to mind for me.

T: Yeah, same for me. Remembering that we’re excluding praise and worship, church music from this, and focusing exclusively on CCM – Christian Contemporary Music. Who are your stand out bands? Who are the bands you listened to a lot, that you returned to and they had an impact on you?

B: There’s lots, but definitely DC Talk. Really liked White Heart, in the early days Petra, because they were one of those bridging bands. I did identify a bit with the heavy rock/light metal scene that bridged into the non-Christian/Christian scene. I liked a lot of the alternative stuff. My brother had a friend in a band called the Rocking Rabbis and I just loved it. It was a bit of post punk sort of stuff, it was a bit of fun. Mad at the World – I think they only brought out three albums but they were all pretty awesome. Steve Camp and Steven Curtis Chapman – even to this day Steven Curtis Chapman is someone I play, particularly with his latest stuff. There was an album, I can’t remember the name of it, but he talks about a horrible situation in his life where their adopted daughter got run over and killed in their driveway by their son, and the album is a journey of his grief and his relationship and connection. Really full on, but they’re some of my favs that come to mind straight away. How about yours?

T: Well, when I was in the Revival Centre – I think I mentioned this before – but Amy Grant got through the Revival Centre filter and somehow we all got exposed to Amy Grant. So Amy Grant Straight Ahead, and Angels – remember Angels watching over me? That was a Christian Television ad too, I remember. Stryper was another one, I didn’t listen to them but I’d heard a lot about them through the mainstream media, and Michael W Smith filtered through a bit, and Keith Green, but after the Revival Centre in my Great Big AOG time, I can tell you there was Petra, but Petra phase 2 so not that early Petra stuff but when they became a lot more heavy when they got a new lead singer in. A guy with long blond hair, John somebody I think his name was. Carmen was another one that was big.

B: Ah, of course.

T: We’ll come back and talk about him in a minute, but Steve Camp as well. DC Talk, Rich Mullins. I really got into Michael Card, he was a folksy, hippy sort of sound but very explicit in its religiosity. I really liked him, then there was another band, just as I was leaving Pentecostalism I got exposed to this group of sisters called Out of Eden. They were released on Gotee records, which was TobyMac and the Mac is back no slack. He put them out, they were fantastic. They were so fresh, really different to the kind of stuff we were used to. But one thing I wanted to point out is for me – and this comes back to what sort of Pentecostal were you, were you a B or a T, mine were extremely explicit, extremely explicit in their religion. If you were singing about God and life, I wasn’t interested. I wanted to hear Jesus and Holy Spirit, evangelism, Acts 9, whatever. It had to be really explicit and biblical, and if you think about it, that’s what they were. Carmen, Petra, Steve Camp, even DC Talk were really quite explicit compared to quite a lot of the others. Rich Mullins, Keith Green, etc. All those bands were really, really explicit. For me it wasn’t just about the music, it had to tell me stories, it had to preach to me as well.

B: Yeah, it depended where I was at in my journey as to what ones I was connected to at the time, but definitely Keith Green, Rich Mullins – the same. Also Charlie Peacock. They were stand outs for me. At times I was seeking a bit more depth, I would gravitate towards those ones that were a bit more explicit in their Christianity, for sure.

T: Yeah, it makes you wonder, what’s the recipe for success? There were bands like Audio Adrenaline and Newsboys – remember we’re talking 90s, right, so forgive us if you weren’t around in that time, but Audio Adrenaline, Newsboys, Rebecca St James – I knew their names. When I tried to listen to their music I just didn’t connect. It didn’t speak to me, maybe it was because I was too much of a fundamentalist and I wanted hardcore religiosity, or maybe it was because it was just the type of music was too bland. I can’t remember anymore, but I think at the time my mentality was it has to say Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, yeah, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, yeah. If it didn’t, it wasn’t Christian and I wasn’t interested. I might as well be listening to Soul II Soul or Matchbox 20.

B: Again, there’s a point of difference for us, surprise, surprise. But I loved the Newsboys. I listened to about three or four of their albums only about a month ago. I’d forgotten about them, and they came up in a conversation and I went ah, Newsboys, of course! They were plagued with a bit of controversy later in their career – we’ve spoken about this before, Michael Tate from DC Talk is now the lead singer because their lead singer got into a bit of strife. I just really liked their music and I connected with it. 

T: I think Kevin Max went and joined Audio Adrenaline for a little while. I think he became the lead singer of Audio Adrenaline.

B: It’s very incestuous, isn’t it, the old CCM scene.

T: What better way to grow your audience than bring a member of DC Talk in, I guess.

B: Yeah, this is true. I think Kevin Max is someone I still connect with. We were listening to this just the other day, weren’t we. Stereotype Be. 

T: Indeed. So I’ve got a question for you. Who did you see live? Talking Australian acts and also international or US acts. Who did you actually see live?

B: There was a few that came to mind, I probably won’t remember them all but I saw Carmen, White Heart, Steve Camp, DC Talk, In the Silence, and after In the Silence finished, one of their lead singers John Dickson went off and went solo, and I saw John Dickson a couple of times. Roma Waterman, which you and I have definitely shared, and Steve Grace. They were the ones I can remember. I’m sure there was more, but we’re talking 25-30 years ago.

T: I saw Carmen as well. Can’t remember if I saw him twice, might have only been once. Then there was also DC Talk – I want to come back to this in a minute because you’ve got to tell us your stories about working with DC Talk and White Heart. Definitely saw Roma, Steve Grace. Do you remember Taylor? There was those four sisters?

B: Ah yes.

T: Saw them, a number of times actually. Also there was a guy named Steve Johnson. He was in some Christian heavy metal band that sort of folded, then later on he went solo and did a few performances here and there, so I saw him a few times as well. Really, in terms of international acts, it was really only Carmen and DC Talk. But on that note, I want to open up for you, because you worked for their tour. This is pretty cool.

B: I did. It must have been 93 or 94, but White Heart and DC Talk came out and toured together. I think it was around the time of Youth Alive that they tried to potentially snag them for that. I can’t exactly remember, but there were three or four of us that were asked to essentially chaperone them around our city, make sure they were able to be transported here and there, and also help transport some of their gear. Some of these tours were done on a shoestring, trying to fit within the budgets of the promoters bringing them in. So yes, hung out with them. It was only for a few days but it was really interesting. I can contrast DC Talk with White Heart – and this is no judgement, it’s just the experience I had. DC Talk were quite huge at the time, it was around the time Jesus Freak was about to come out and that was a really big album for them. They were quite aloof and didn’t want a great deal to do with you. TobyMac a little bit more, he would acknowledge you, but I found Kevin Max was very aloof. I think he’s quite an alternative soul as well, and quite shy. He came across really, really shy. Michael Tate acknowledged again, but they didn’t really want anything to do with you outside of the job you were doing. Whereas White Heart, the whole band would sit down and talk with you, they’d be talking about everyday stuff, about how they missed their families, about how they loved Australia, and their observations of Australia and Australians. It was a really, really different thing. I remember one thing in particular where TobyMac had asked to be dropped off in the city. They obviously had back to back engagements on their tour and it was flat out. He’d asked to get dropped off in the city, and asked everyone if they knew a good massage place. I dropped him off, pointed him in the direction of a couple of masseuses, and all of a sudden the rumours were flying around the group that he’d potentially gone to a brothel. I remember thinking at the time, what the hell? What are people thinking when someone can’t even go for a massage, and they wanted some time to themselves? It was ridiculous, it bounced around and I heard it from a few different people that sort of fed in, that had nothing to do with the process, but the rumours had got out there. I felt so sorry for the guy. He couldn’t do anything without getting some accusations thrown at him, and then I thought to myself maybe that’s why they don’t engage with people too much, because they just can’t be bothered with the shit.

T: Yeah, but also they just can’t win, right? You’re damned if you do, damned if you don’t. I mean, the guy asks for a massage, that turns into massage parlour, and the next thing you know everyone’s thinking that TobyMac got no slack.

B: On a DC track that’s jacked… But yeah, it was really quite sad, but it was interesting at that time because I was fan-boying both of the bands, because within our scene they were massive, worldwide known bands, won many Christian music awards. I think DC Talk even went on to win Grammys.

T: Yeah, they went mainstream. In New Zealand I think Jesus Freak even made Top 10 or something in mainstream, not just in US.

B: I don’t know if anyone has seen the live version of it, I’m sure there’s footage of it on YouTube or whatever, but when they perform it they’re throwing themselves around. It’s incredibly high energy. At one stage TobyMac is climbing up a lighting tower and looking like he’s going to jump, really getting into it, and the audience goes absolutely crazy. I remember a friend turning to me during that song – it was at the live show – and going I actually think this is Satanic. I remember thinking at the time, what the hell? What is wrong with you that you’re thinking this is Satanic because of it being high energy? But they went on about it after the show, saying I think they’re taking the band in the wrong direction, it’s obvious by the way they’re performing on stage they’ve become worldly. It was just ridiculous, people’s interpretation of what’s happening.

T: Can I reflect on that, because I was so enmeshed and immersed in church and I was in that don’t listen to worldly music thing. I loved that album, it was a great album and like you, I still listen to it today, but later on I turned on Smells like Teen Spirit by Nirvana and went ohh, it’s a fucking rip off. Ohhh. Typical to Christian music right, let’s grab something that’s successful and make a Christian version so that our little darlings don’t have to listen to this evil stuff. It was a total, absolute rip off. So when you say what a great song, part of me goes yeah, but another part of me goes but it was a total rip off. They’re amazing performers, but there was no creativity in that song, because it was a total rip off of Nirvana.

B: Yeah, I think it was that grunge sound that was around at that time, early 90s.

T: Oh, but even the beginning of the song – we’re not going to play it here of course, but if you compare the very beginning of Smells Like Teen Spirit to the very beginning of Jesus Freak, and it is exactly the same song that they have completely ripped off.

B: Yeah, there’s guitar distortion a-plenty. Music rips each other off all the time. I remember Jet, the Australian band, when they came out everyone went oh my God they’re just ripping of Led Zeppelin. They possibly were, but they were still great. But I think you’re right, some of it is about bringing that music in so other people don’t have to look outwards, but gee I loved Nirvana, too. 

T: I played both to my son. He knows Nirvana really well, I’ve indoctrinated him really well into that, so I said have a listen to this, and I played it and he goes oh dad, oh dad. He was so disappointed in the blatant rip-off. But coming back to the concert – I must have seen White Heart as well, because that’s where I saw DC Talk was on that tour. I must have blanked it out. But I remember Kevin Max – back then he was called Kevin Smith, and he was running around the stage preening, literally preening and pouting, putting his lips together like he was kissing, and staring off to the side of the stage. I’ve never seen anybody do that in any sort of band performance. It was like he was fashion modelling, strike-a-pose vogue-ing, as Madonna would have called it. Truly. And watching it – I was with my girlfriend at the time – we were looking at each other and going what is this? It’s not even that from a “worldly” perspective it was weird, but from a Christian perspective it was like, hold on, where’s Jesus? I do feel for these guys as well because they can’t win. That’s what we were saying a minute ago, we were all sitting there and if they’re not Jesus enough we’re going ugh, they’re not good, and if they’re TOO Jesus and not hip and worldly enough, we’re going ugh. The poor guys, it must have been really hard for them.

B: It would have been an absolute killer.

T: Whilst becoming millionaires. Must have been terrible.

B: Oh, just horrible. But they’ve really gone off in very different directions, haven’t they.  The three members of DC Talk, with Newsboys, TobyMac has done a fair bit of stuff himself, and then Kevin Max has incredibly deep music.

T: Very arty, which is that preening, that posing and everything. Like you said, it’s a very arty expression and I think that’s what he did. Some of his albums got really weird, and I only just re-embraced his stuff more recently, even his 2000-2002 music, I was completely away from church at that time, I went back and I could hear a real Smiths influence in his music. It’s very clear, even the way he does some Morrissey vocals, and so not Jesus Jesus Jesus, hey. I would have hated it if he’d released it in the 90s but now I can really appreciate it. Who have you dug up?

B: In terms of contemporary Christian music? 

T: Mmm, who have you gone back to and happily put on your Spotify playlist?

B: DC Talk is on there, Newsboys are definitely on there after that little session of listening to four albums in a row – they seem to pop back up on my feed all the time. Kevin Max, a lot actually, because of the depth of it. I tried listening to White Heart a couple of months ago, didn’t work for me. I didn’t relate anymore. I thought it was good music, soft sort of metal, it didn’t connect with me although I can see why I connected with it back then. But those other core three are probably the ones. I did listen to some Rich Mullins reasonably recently, and Charlie Peacock. Steven Curtis Chapman as I’ve said before – I think it’s Beauty will Rise is the name of that album. If you haven’t listened to it, it is very Jesus Jesus God God, but I think the story of it, it’s a thematic album that starts in such an incredibly deep place of grief and it takes you to a place of hope. I’ve listened to it when I’ve been going through shit in my own life, and it’s really helped me out. Although I don’t call out to Jesus when I’m in trouble these days, it’s certainly helped me with journeying through those times. How about yourself?

T: For the longest time I couldn’t listen to Christian music, it would trigger me and I hated it. I was just like nah, this is shit. It didn’t matter how good it was , I wasn’t interested. I closed myself off to church, closed myself to Christianity and in doing so, I also closed myself off to Christian music. But more recently – and we’re talking within the last 12 months – I started to listen to this Christian music again, but not taking it literally. It’s like being a progressive Christian, reading the bible and not taking it literally. I think you can listen to the music, and regardless of how it was presented or intended then, you can listen to it metaphorically if you want. It was actually Petra, the heavy rock Petra stuff, so there I am driving in my car listening to this Petra stuff, literally got my fingers in what we used to call the sign of the devil, rocking on to Petra, but then I reopened DC Talk through my Spotify playlist, and Rich Mullins especially. Rich Mullins is so poetic, I’m listening to his music now and realising he probably wasn’t seeing the world as I did, even though I was listening to his music and interpreting it through my fundamentalist lens. I’m not convinced he was such a fundamentalist, when I listen to his music now. I really think he was a bit of an artist musician with a Jesus influence. You know the other one that got me, I wasn’t into it in the church but I didn’t realise I was getting tricked into it, was Creed. Remember them? That Pearl Jam rip off band. I really liked their music, they used to play it on the radio, and they were Christians. When you listen to the music now, I was blocking it out I guess, but when you listen now there’s streets of gold, arms wide open, all this kind of stuff. It’s totally Jesus, and yet I was listening to them thinking they were secular, meanwhile they were full on Christian. I would have burn their albums to the ground, if I’d known. But I love them. They’re still great, a really good band, in spite of the fact that they’re a Pearl Jam rip off.

B: And they slightly sound like Nickelback.

T: I get the Nickelback hate, but I don’t hate them like everybody else does.

B: Neither do I. I quite like them, they’re not on my playlist but I don’t cringe when I hear them, I think it’s just become a little bit of something that’s caught on, to hate Nickelback. But the great thing about music too, is an artist can write a song, perform it and mean it one particular way, you can take it another way and interpret it through your own eyes, and it’s still really valuable.

T: That’s good art. 

B: That’s great art, and it’s really common with songs that we do that. Quite often I will google and say what does this song mean, and it’s completely opposite to how I’ve interpreted it, because I’ve seen it with my own lenses and baggage, but it’s still incredibly meaningful. That’s the beauty of music.

T: I agree. So let’s jump back a little bit before we harp on too much about where we are now. What purpose did Christian Contemporary Music – not praise and worship, not choruses – what purpose did Christian Contemporary Music play in your life, in relation to your faith back in the 90s?

B: It was massive. As we’ve spoken about many times, I connect with music. I’m quite an emotional being, and definitely the emotional connection of music is something I lean on, but also that ability to interpret life through song is something that is important to me. With non-Christian music being so important to me, I had to have something to lean on which built my faith, because I was told very strongly that you cannot continue to listen to secular music and expect your faith to grow. As we’ve spoken about in our music episode part 1, I burnt and broke most of my non-Christian music, so I had to rebuild it within a Christian context to be able to build my faith. So, incredibly important to me. It was a cornerstone of my life.

T: I think it reinforced my faith, so that’s what I meant when I said I wanted music that was Jesus Jesus Jesus hey, God in your life, devotional, so definitely it was a reinforcement of my beliefs. We used to talk about feeding yourself on the Word, so being able to listen to music that was explicitly Christian, I back then would have interpreted it as building up my spirit in the Lord, brother. But actually what I was doing was a reinforcement of dogma, dogmatic beliefs. But I used it quite prayerfully, especially a lot of that soft ooh-aah music, I would often turn the lights off and listen to that Christian music, in the same way people use praise and worship, I guess. Praise and worship to me sounded like fucking Disneyland, it just wasn’t my scene, so I would listen to this stuff. I would meditate on it, listen to the words, but also bring me into a mood or a place. But the other thing is it was a way for me to express or engage my musical preferences without being locked into banjos or keyboards, or Disneyland kind of music. I don’t know if you’ve noticed but if you go to Disneyland and some of their shows, it sounds like some of the Hosanna live events you used to hear on the tapes. Totally this American, middle class kind of bunk. But the musical preferences of mine could be tapped into, because while I really like the heavy stuff, still do to this day, I also was really open to rap. That DC Talk sort of dancy stuff was really good. 

B: It’s definitely a powerful thing. Where would the world be without music?

T: Hey, you know what I want to ask you about is Carmen. I have a bit of a story about Carmen – I was thinking about it before the show, if you went to a Las Vegas dinner and concert show for Christians, that would be Carmen, right? That’s what he was. 

B: 100%. I saw Carmen very early in my Christian journey, I reckon it was 1990 or 91. It was quite a big show with a packed hall. I didn’t know how to take it, because there was a lot of prayer, a lot of bow your head now, head back up now, bow your head now. It was very powerful music and he was very talented, but you’re right – he was a showman.

T: Yeah. He was. Did he every marry?

B: I’m not sure.

T: Yeah I’m not sure if he ever married, but he definitely wasn’t in the 90s and there was a bit of a rumour that he was one of these guys that had – and please, no one sue me, I think he’s passed away hasn’t he B?

B: I know he had cancer and I’m pretty sure he did die last year.

T: Which is not good, but the rumour was that he was one of these celibate gay Christians, and that’s why he wasn’t married. Or maybe it was just more about his being married to his music. I met an American guy who had been in his band, and the stories he told – and maybe this is just his perspective, and he was angry and they hadn’t gotten along, was that Carmen was extremely unapproachable, even to his band members. He was totally aloof, he was totally cut off from them, he paid them a salary, they did the job and that was it. He was more about his career, he was about his albums, his audience, his events, all that stuff, which when you think about it, we saw that a lot with pastors. It was all about the performance, the narcissism, the ego, rather than really relating and connecting with people. So this story was first hand, he had been a musician in Carmen’s band and he said we would get ideas about things for the show, and we knew there was no point going to him because he wasn’t going to listen to us. So I think that is probably why Carmen was such a big hit for us as Pentecostals in the 90s, because he was cut from the same block as we had come from.

B: Yeah, true. I’ve been googling while you’ve been talking, and I can confirm that he died on the 16th of February this year, and he did marry but he didn’t marry until he was 61. He married in 2017, then in January 2020 he announced that the cancer had returned, and he died, ironically, in Las Vegas. 

T: Well there you go, because he was a Las Vegas showman, just a Christian version. I don’t wish the guy any ill and I’m really sorry he died, and also what I’m talking about with his sexuality was just a rumour, the guitarist I met didn’t say anything about that. I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that’s where he was at – not that there’s anything wrong with it.

B: You wouldn’t admit to it though, in the scene, would you. So of course you had to hide it.

T: No, not back then. Not at all. So, we’ve done a lot of talking. Very good, but now it’s time to jump into these songs, and then we’ll do a bit more talking. So do you want to jump into your song first, B?

B: Yes, that is Steve Camp, Living in Laodicea. Go to the show notes where the link is, listen to the lyrics, and we’ll have a little bit of a chat afterwards.

T: That’s right, or if the link isn’t working for you, and you’re out, go into YouTube or Spotify and look up Living in Laodicea by Steve Camp. So let’s play this now, and well come back and talk about it.

…

B: So there we go. Living in Laodicea. How’d you go, T?

T: Yep, pretty guilty. It’s based on Revelation 3, right, where the church in Laodicea, where Jesus stands up or whatever and says you’re neither hot nor cold, you’re lukewarm, I spit you out of my mouth, so nice song! Good pick, B.

B: You like that one? It used to be one that I would run back to when I was feeling a bit lukewarm. For those who like to know a bit of the context, Laodicea is in the modern day Syria. It was a very rich part of the world, it was the wealthiest part that got destroyed by an earthquake, I think it was. They were so rich that the Roman Empire offered them money to rebuild, and they went no, we got this, we can do it ourselves because we are loaded. We’re cashed up. They were incredibly wealthy and independent, and I think some of the messages that would always come around was hey, this is what money and wealth will do, it will push you away from God. So yes, they were lukewarm and God was spewing them out of his mouth. So I used to run back to that song when I felt like I was drifting a bit, and in retrospect, guilt myself a bit because I didn’t want to be that lukewarm person, although I always was (let’s be honest) and I think it did help me reset sometimes. This was a go to song for a couple of years, bundled in with a bit of Keith Green guilt. Not to mention Steve Camp, he’s a beautiful artist, I saw him live and he really was amazing. I loved his sound, but guilt ridden for me.

T: That guy from Carmen’s band, he said nothing nice about Steve Camp. He said oh self-righteous, arrogant – full on, according to him anyway. But he said the same thing about Carmen, now that I think about it. He didn’t like him at all, he was just too self-righteous, but you can see that. When you listen to Steve Camp’s music now, he was really hard on himself, really judgemental on himself, and poured that out onto others. Laodicea – were they rich enough though to have those 80s keyboards? It was pretty fucking 80s man.

B: It was. That song was sponsored by Korg, no doubt.

T: Brought to you by Korg DS7!

B: When I saw Steve Camp and obviously because Australia is so far from the US, he didn’t bring a band or anything. Probably because he wasn’t big enough, the venue I saw him at had maybe 2-300 people, absolute max. It was him, his keyboard, and a backing track, so it was an interesting one. It spoke to me, I don’t listen to it now because I do not relate to it but it was hugely influential in these early days, and probably up until about a year or two before my musical flavour and taste started to change. Over to you T – I reckon it’s your turn for a song.

T: Yep well, trigger warning – we should have said trigger warning before all these, but certainly a trigger warning for this one. Staying with the theme of guilt, I’m going to play from the Keith Green No Compromise album, Asleep in the Light. So go ahead, click on the link, we’ll give you a minute to do that then keep going with the podcast. … All right, so you threw the guilt down with Steve Camp, I saw that guilt and raised you with Keith Green. 

B: You did indeed. 

T: Wow, what a guilt ridden song. The bit when he goes Jesus rose from the grave, and you can’t even get out of bed – I can remember I was in my low 20s, needed a whole heap more sleep than I do now, and I used to struggle to get out of bed in the morning. Even that caused me guilt. YOU can’t even get out of bed? It was full on.

B: There’s another side to that song. It’s heavy with guilt, but there’s also a social justice side to it that I really connected with as well. When Jesus came to your door, you did nothing. You didn’t answer, you did nothing with your time. Yes it absolutely is guilt ridden but it reminded me that it wasn’t just about the church, which I quite liked and certainly gave me a nudge in that way as well.

T: Sure. Maybe again this is because I was listening to this in Great Big AOG and there really wasn’t much mention of social justice, but I always interpreted that as Jesus came to the door, but you didn’t tell him. It wasn’t that you didn’t feed or clothe him, and maybe that’s really what Keith Green was talking about, but for me it was pure evangelism.

B: No, no I think you’re right. I think he was hardcore evangelist, but if you also look at what he did, you’ve read No Compromise, I’m sure quite a few people listening have read it, and they did a lot for housing people, of bringing people out of addictive and violent lifestyles, so I think there was a cultish element to parts of it, but that was also in the context of the 70s and 80s. Him and Melody did a lot for people in a real servants way, as well.

T: Or at least tried to. The other thing, I don’t know if you read between the lines with Keith Green, but I think he suffered some pretty serious mental illness. I think he had a lot of depression. When you hear at the end of this song he does this whole guilt, guilt, guilt and I think again like Steve Camp, the guilt goes first at themselves, and then from that they pour it out onto everybody else. It was this self-loathing, you’re not good enough, but he finishes the song with come away, come away with me my love. It’s like self-soothing – come away from this mess. He’s done this whole diatribe of self-loathing and judgement but all of a sudden it’s like ohh. The thing that struck me when I listened to it this time was come away from this mess. I don’t think he was a happy person. I think he was really suffering internally.

B: Yeah, good chance. A lot of tortured artists are quite brilliant aren’t they. He falls into that camp for me. I love Keith Green, in terms of his talent, not so much the guilt stuff, but he was an incredibly talented human being. Before he dedicated himself wholly and solely to Christian music, the influence he had in the secular world in the songs he wrote and the people he partnered with were phenomenal. I think he would have been enormous had he not come into the Christian music scene.

T: Hmm, I don’t know. Maybe. There’s a lot of people out there that are extremely gifted and they don’t quite get discovered. I wonder if he would have been one of those – you read his book, and there’s so many almosts, he never quite got there. Then he launched in the Christian scene. I remember there was a tribute album released in the 90s. A lot of very famous Christian artists got together and put out this album. I remember I was in the car with Pastor B once, Asleep in the Light was actually done by Michael Card, and Pastor B had this album playing in his car and he said when I get to this song I just have to skip it. I remember sitting there being holier than thou and as judgemental as all fuck, and going yep, I believe that, and this is the problem with your church – sitting there thinking in my mind. I used to get really frustrated with coffee and chat, home group bible studies and all this, and people weren’t interested in what was going on on the outside. There’s two sides to that, right, on the one hand there’s the judgemental horrific critical shit. I wasn’t even happy with myself, and I’m out there pouring it out onto other people, much like these artists, and that’s probably why I related to them. But on the other side there’s that whole social justice thing. There was these little clubs, and people weren’t interested in giving or helping or supporting. I know you and I, when we were doing that street work, remember we’d bring some of these street kids in, and the way they were treated by people in the church. I was like hold on, what happened? This isn’t the message.

B: They were physically moved from the front of the church to be put up the back where they couldn’t be seen or heard. But there’s Keith. We do love a bit of Keith. 

T: Yep, even still but I can’t listen to him much. He’s not on my playlist, he’s too explicit and too guilt-ridden. I don’t even believe it anymore, and it still pushes my buttons. Even listening to it then I gotta say, I was triggering a little bit, so apologies if that happened to anyone else listening in. But yeah it’s a story to be told, I guess.

B: Yeah, definitely.

T: This next one is Petra, it’s from the Beyond Belief album, which was John whatever-his-name-was, when he joined the band. This was his first album. They got a lot heavier, they got a lot more Nickelback-ish, not that Nickelback existed, but it was that kind of sound. This one is called Creed. It’s going back to the Apostles creed, I think, so stop this, go away and listen to it, and we’ll come back and talk about it.

…

T: All right, so how was that? I mean, rock on, motherfuckers. Can you believe that kind of music was at one time offensive and controversial to Christians? This was like the wrong thing to do – that was 91 or maybe a bit earlier.

B: Petra was my first Christian album I ever got. I’m pretty sure it was Petra On Fire, the one with the sword on fire on the front?

T: With the first lead singer.

B: What says dedicated Christian more than a sword on fire, so I got that one, and it think it was a bit controversial, and it was a little bit…um…on the edge. But tell me how that song speaks to you, and how did it speak to you?

T: For me then it was an affirmation. Like I was talking about before, an affirmation of my beliefs. A big part of it was the ability to rock on – world class. Listen to that voice, right? The mix, the sound, it was absolutely brilliant, and I loved it. 

B: Petra were one of those bands I tried to like. Probably early on I went okay, I’ve gotta like this, and I liked it, but I never really got into them that much. In that genre it was probably more White Heart, which was slightly softer. Some mates got into Christian Death Metal – an interesting genre. I never connected.

T: Yeah, I loved good fucking heavy shit. I really enjoyed it – still do. I’m quite happy to put Iron Maiden on when I drive. All right, mate, last song. Do you want to introduce this one?

B: This is one for me. I started thinking a bit more about social justice through work with street kids, as T and I have spoken about before, and this song came around that time for me. I think it was around 93-94. This is John Dickson, John used to be one of the lead singers of In the Silence, which was an Australian Christian band, and John went solo after they split. I’m pretty sure this was his first album, Maranooka. Maranooka, in a specific Aboriginal dialect, means friend. But let’s play it, have a listen, and I’ll tell you about what it meant to me, and what it did for me.

T: Ok, dear listener you go away and play this, and we’ll be back to talk about it in a minute. 

…

B: So there we are. Maranooka, which means friend. This song really connected me with the social justice side of things. Daniel Matthews was a missionary back in the mid 1800s on the Victoria and New South Wales border. Obviously this is within the context of the time, so if this were to happen now it would be completely unacceptable, and back then it shouldn’t have happened either, but back then it was a different way. Daniel Matthews really embedded himself in Aboriginal culture, and the space in the mid-1800s to the point where he was actually going to Sydney quite often, and advocating for Aboriginal tribes that were dispossessed of their land, and who were basically de-tribalised, is the word they used back then. What he did is, of his own land from what I understand, he gave up 20 acres to give a reserve and a place for local Aboriginal families to have a place they could call their own. After lobbying he ended up securing I think it was 1,800 acres, or 2,000 acres along the Murray River, which runs between Victoria and New South Wales, around the Barmah town and forest. That was given to the people back then, which was fairly unprecedented. Reserves were set up back then to basically herd in Aboriginal people to keep them away from white populations and squatter populations, but this was different. It was done through that lens of social justice and recognition of a dispossession of lands, and a racist agenda by governments in Australia. 

T: Were you listening to this whilst in Pentecostalism or did it happen a little bit later?

B: No, I was, within Pentecostalism. This was some of the disconnect that just didn’t sit comfortably, and it was this sort of music I was listening to, which led me out in part, to be able to reconcile it. Social justice was something that was really growing in me at the time to the point where now it’s central to my profession which I get paid for. Even back then I got it, and I got what he was talking about. Daniel Matthews had copped a fair bit of criticism for being racist, and this and that, but he was really ahead of the curve in terms of fighting for the rights of Aboriginal people in Australia when it wasn’t popular. He was ostracised for that, and most certainly was not seen in a favourable light as a missionary. Even though a lot of missionaries cared for people and they wanted to provide health care, education, it was done to convert them and bring them to white man’s ways. From what I understand, Daniel Matthews was a point of difference on that where he wanted to retain some of those original ways for Aboriginal people.

T: As a Pentecostal, who would you talk to about this? I’m listening to this and I’m thinking I get it now, 100%, celebrate it, but when I was hardcore Pentecostal this wouldn’t even have made my radar, and if it did, I would have just let it go to the keeper. Who were you talking to about this? Who were you relating to about this?

B: Probably at the time, my wife. We were just dating at the time; she had come from a bit of an alternative scene and didn’t really fit neatly in the Pentecostal space. She got this stuff, so I think it was probably her. No one else within the friendship group would have got it, and when I moved to another church when I left Pentecostalism, they got it. It was very social justice focused, and it was probably what led me into that space. I knew I’d be able to process this stuff that was coming up for me.

T: I know that later on in my Church of Christ time, I probably would have said yeah man, let’s listen, Triple J – that’s what it was for me. In the AOG times? No way. I would have had a conversation with you about this, but I wouldn’t have listened to the music. I would have just thought nah, that’s not spiritual enough. That’s talking about things that are of this world, not a higher purpose. Did you wrestle with that in yourself in listening to this, or were you like nah, this matters, this is true?

B: I don’t remember ever wrestling with it. I remember it sitting comfortably with me. As I’ve spoken about many times, I’ve always felt unease with that evangelistic side, the Jesus Jesus God God and ignoring the person within that space, so I think this connected me, it made sense. It connected a Christian belief with something that was about justice and people.

T: Very good. That shows the growth, right. That shows the seeds of where you are now were there when you were young. Yeah, very good. I wish I could say the same. Definitely later on, but certainly not in my AOG time, so hats off to you. We’re at the end of time.  Hopefully those of you who played along enjoyed that. If you skipped over the songs and it didn’t quite connect, maybe go back and listen to the songs and then the conversation, but entirely up you, dear listener. Next week, B, we have a very special episode with Tara Jean Stevens, who is the producer and host of the Heaven Bent podcast. I know you’re excited about this one.

B: I’m super excited. I’m a bit of a Tara Jean fan boy. I did love her podcast, so if people have the opportunity, go and listen to a couple of her episodes before next week, because I think it’ll help in understanding Tara Jean a bit more. But we’re going to poke and prod away, and find out a bit more about Tara Jean as a person, but also some of that stuff that was embedded in her series one and series two of Heaven Bent as well.

T: Yeah, her teenage fundamentalist past will be really interesting to unpack, but also the whole Toronto Blessing. You and I have talked, that was really impactful on us but in very different ways. This is what season one of her podcast is all about – the Toronto blessing – which is our 90s Pentecostalism. The other thing that’s going to happen next week is we’re going to have an announcement about how you can support the podcast. We’re at the place now where we want to expand a little bit, we want to get some more advertising out, so we’re going to have an announcement next week about how you can support the podcast, but again I want to really stress that if you want to listen and that’s all your engagement wants to be, 100% we’re fine with that. We don’t want to trigger anyone by passing the offering bag. But we’ll announce that next week. Anything you want to say B, before we wrap for this Season 2 Episode 1?

B: Thank you for listening, everyone. It’s been a longer episode, we thought we’d come charging out of the gates with a longer episode for Season 2, but music deserves it, in my opinion. I love music. As we’ve said a hundred times, I love it, I love it.

T: Indeed, so speaking of music, let’s cue the extro-music, we did the intro now we’ll do the extro and enjoy that as we go, and we’ll see you all next week folks for I was a Teenage Fundamentalist.